Wher'd the other topics go?

topic posted Mon, March 1, 2004 - 9:49 AM by  Drunken
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I dunno, I go to London for a week to see my girlfriend off, and when I come back the board's empty again! WTF?
posted by:
Drunken
United Kingdom
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    Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

    Mon, March 1, 2004 - 1:40 PM
    Shit happens mate. I think we scared them off.
    • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

      Mon, March 1, 2004 - 9:59 PM
      What happened?
      • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

        Tue, March 2, 2004 - 7:20 AM
        You tell me, mate; you're the moderator...

        There was at least one other thread on here, and now it's gone...
        • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

          Fri, March 5, 2004 - 7:03 PM
          I didn't nix them - I was away from my comp for the time they were apparently here, received an irate email about...something...and then it was nothing.
          • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

            Sat, March 6, 2004 - 8:27 AM
            The number of people that get hypersensitive over the internet is absurd, especially when it's both documented and observable that people overstate themselves over the internet anyway...myself included.

            And I stand firmly by my criticism of White Wolf, incidentally; they, and WOTC, are the Microsoft of RPG's. And there are a million brainwashed goons out there that are incapable of thinking outside of the WW box as a result of their highly effective 'don't worry, OUR RPG is cool, kids!' indoctrination.

            RPGs are not cool. You may enjoy them, but doing so places you in a category of society only marginally cooler than Hentai collectors, Rush fans, Real Ale drinkers and furries. In fact, in my experience (Big Eyes, Small Mouth anyone?) there's considerable crossover.

            But that's OK, because cool isn't everything. And roleplayers do still get laid occasionally. LRPers in my experience do get laid a little bit more often if anything, not really based upon any particular personal merits, but rather because I think the theatrical element to LRP, at least in Europe, attracts a middling-attractive, slightly-to-severely melodramatic female demographic, with a tendency to nymphomania. And dressing up as cat-creatures...mmm...

            Anyway, I think I got sidetracked there. Any questions?
            • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

              Sat, March 6, 2004 - 9:00 AM
              Heheh, fair enough. Looks like being oblivious/negligent for a week paid off and I didn't have to see any of it.
              While I do enjoy WWGS products (I download them ~all~! how could I not like them?) I'm hoping that the lull/span between WoD 1.0 and 2.0 allows for a little void-filling, y'know?

              I'll pimp my own thing seperately.
            • Bob
              Bob
              offline 8

              Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

              Mon, May 3, 2004 - 5:40 AM
              And let's not the lovely sub-set of femininity/gay masculinity attracted to nerds/geeks (which does exist - I assure you! Ask my wife ;-) )

              And, of course, there is little nerdier than LARP. Let's all face that simple truth.

              And I'm not ashamed... LOL
              Bob
            • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

              Mon, May 3, 2004 - 8:06 AM
              Hey! I would like to think that I am at least middling attractive, and not melodramatic. And I am NOT a nymphomaniac. One of those girls who sleeps with everyone, or the vast majority of a group bug me a lot. I'm just.... weird. :) There are female gamer geeks too. But I will admit that gamers in general are from a subset of society, a fringe element. I just would never have known any different. My parents were in the SCA before I was born, and I was introduced to D&D when it was just 3 paperback booklets.
              My brothers, who are in the main pic with me, are all gamers and we've introduced each other to a large number of systems. I don't swear by any ONE system, I think that several have merit and flaws. WW is overdone, and flawed, but I do enjoy it, like parts of their system. Besides, having a world-wide organization has helped me quite a bit in a couple of instances. I moved from Denver to where I live now, which is a small town in Washington state, and its through them that I found a group of people that I like to hang out with. Also when I've traveled its given me a place to go and do things without feeling totally out of place. I am not very social or good at making new friends, and I tend to not make myself available to new friendships if I don't know I share common ground with the other people first. :) Anyway, there's my 2 cents. (But they are American cents, so worth about 1 cent English as one of my friends tells me.)
              • Jim
                Jim
                offline 9

                Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                Mon, May 3, 2004 - 9:28 AM
                Well, Miriam, I think your beautiful, but I'm partial ;- ).

                In all the talk of geekdom and such, let me ask a serious question. Why are we concerned with the mechanical system of LARP and how do the mechanics make or break the game?

                Alot of WW bashers here, and I'd like to know why for my own curiousity. I've played two LARP's...Shades of Nightfall first, which ended as I began LARP, and the Cam. I am writing a pair of Fantasy LARPs now, for a small group of us, which is, ultimately why I am curious about y'all's view on the mechanics

                Thanks
                • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                  Wed, May 5, 2004 - 8:32 AM
                  I guess I think that the function of mechanics should ultimately be to support suspension of disbelief. My vision of what LRP should be involves something that is as close to drama as possible in terms of values; realism or plausibility of cause-and-effect should be the aim, whilst being as unobtrusive as possible.

                  I used to think that there was a place for stats in a LRP game, but after many discussions with Dan I think that the numerical input should be minimised-especially if you're talking about on-the-fly skill use such as combat. Pretty much all that people are capable of in that situation is counting hits; and sometimes not even that.

                  Basically, we decided that if you are going to have direct competitions in terms of skill, numbers is not the way to do it. Pretty soon you have unrealistic combat with no reason to actually act it out, because it could all be done sat around a table. You have things like people dodging blows that clearly hit them, or people having to sit down and work out if they know that their opponent is lying...which by that point, OOC they'll be pretty sure of. OK, people should not let that knowledge get mixed into the game, but it's better if the game minimises the opportunity for people to gain such insights while they're playing. What's the fun in walking into a trap that you know is there, but can't avoid because of the difference in your and your character's knowledge? If you survive the trap, you may be accused of surviving only because your OOC knowledge gave you the opportunity to prepare, when you would have displayed caution even had you not known...

                  All in all, I think that numbered skills and the mechanics needed to play them are a pain in the ass to ref or to play (ie self-ref); and I also think that the way that some systems (not merely WW) include numbered skills for things like intuition, subterfuge. etc actively detract from an immersive atmosphere by forcing ugly mechanics that have no place in the game to the surface every time that they are used.

                  For a long time I was at a loss as to how to replace numbered stats for use in games of greater depth. Then I realised; every real-life skill is broken down into hundreds of subsidiary skills. So for instance, I'm a silversmith. The first thing I learned to do was make a ring. That in itself taught me at least 6 separate processes; to cut; bend, solder, hammer into shape, clean and polish a piece of silver.

                  Rather than say I was a level 1 smith, why not treat each of these processes as a point on a web of skills? Later on in the web, skills would have pre-requisites from earlier on which I would need to learn first; so before I became a horse-breeder, I might need to learn basic animal husbandry or something similar. A system of time-slots in between games, rather than XP, allows you to divide you time realistically between training and other activities, such as making things, exploring your surroundings, etc.

                  So that would be the game mechanic I would use instead of numbered skills or stats, for skills that are craft or profession-based, combat-based, or otherwise skills that can be learned and acted out without really knowing too much about how they work.

                  However, it doesn't address skills like 'seduce' or 'subterfuge'. My answer to this is to avoid them entirely. Many people say that this is stupid, because LRP is about being someone different to who they are. I argue that they don't realise how much the person that they are affects their behaviour. There is no way on earth a roleplayer can go entirely against their own character. Sure they may go against their principles; playing a slaver, even if in real life it is abhorrent to them, or playing a heterosexual when in real life they are gay. But if for instance, a person is poor at lying, or ill-suited to combat, then it going to be very difficult for them to overcome that, regardless of the system's mechanics. We would never expect a wheelchair-bound player to play a fearsome-warrior - not in Live roleplay, anyway; though they could play an injured veteran or some such.

                  If we look to the field of acting, we can see how much trouble the best actors go to in order to properly integrate their personal experiences with those that their character is meant to have. Daniel Day-Lewis spent months living in a tent and skinning his own kills before Last of the Mohicans. He went on to become an expert knife-thrower before Gangs of New York. Emotionally he's a wreck, because he takes this a bit too far, but hey.

                  An argument someone used against this concept was 'but if someone looks like he's been kicked in the balls every time he lies, what can he do?' My answer was not to lie. Because he'll look like he's kicked in the balls every time someone says 'subterfuge 5' and he passes, going on to repeat his lie. And it's not fair to him or the other player to perpetuate a situation where there is so much capacity for IC/OOC knowledge to conflict. So not only does this kind of mechanic ruin the fluidity of play, but it's also ineffective at achieving what it's intended to do.

                  So rather than having skills to raise your effectiveness as a fighter, try to get better at fighting. Damage calls are fine, as long as they're simple, because the doing of actual damage is unwanted. But having dodge calls, or things like Celerity just overcomplicates combat and changes it into something that's difficult to play and hard to ref. Quite often it simply ends up turn-based.

                  And, hey regarding lying; LRP is the one situation that you can lie your ass off and not get into trouble; so I suggest that people take advantage of the opportunity to practice. Last Gathering I played an exceedingly dishonest character, and I ended up surpriseing myself. I've always thought I was a poor liar (well, my mum can always tell!) but it turned out that I was either better than I thought, or other people were more stupid. Either way, (or both ways, perhaps) my lies created a game situation that was fun for everyone, even the people that I had lied to; and a lie doing a good thing is a pretty rare occurence.

                  Anyway, I'll shut up now.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                    Wed, May 5, 2004 - 8:55 AM
                    I haven't yet run across a system, table-top or live-action that allowed for a believable system of combat. Especially if you have any magic involved, or flight, or invisibility or becoming non-solid or a lot of things. But we all play these games to be something other than an ordinary person with ordinary skills.
                    Thats not to say that WW's retests and numbered skills is the best system going. But whether the skills you want your character to have are speed, or strength or jumping or being able to walk on walls or being able to seduce other people we should all have the opportunity to play it. I can pretty well promise that you don't want to see me in a chainmail, or leather or spandex or fur bikini! But that doesn't mean that I don't want to remember the body I had at 17 and play it out.
                    I like playing a game with a lot going for it other than combat, political and social intrigue etc. But sometimes its very satisfying to play out a combat scene. Even if I lose.
                    • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                      Wed, May 5, 2004 - 9:53 AM
                      Well, speed, strength etc aren't skills, they're physical traits. And I think that playing an ordinary person, relying on your wits and courage to get through situations is more satisfying than playing an uber-mage that is almost invulnerable. In fact, roleplay's model of magick, as opposed to that in the main fantasy novels that influenced it, or the real life myths and religions that influenced the books, is another debate entirely. Suffice it to say, that had Gandalf showed up at the back door to Khazad Dum in a D&D campaign, he would have probably used the spell rock-to-mud and avoided a huge opportunity for drama.

                      And I'm not saying that it's not acceptable to go overboard and play something 100% different in a tabletop game. It's just that in a live setting there are various constraints on what we can actually play; I, at 6'3" and 11 stone can no more play a halfling than my 5' nothing, 20 stone mate can play an elf.

                      Extrapolate that out and basically what I'm saying is; play to your strengths, unless what you're after is a learning experience; ie you might be very undiplomatic, in which case you can either become a barbarian, or be an ambassador and give it a go; because skills like that (interpersonal skills) are ones that you can improve by working on it...in a perfect world we should have the opportunity to play things that are wildly different from ourselves. However, it's not the game mechanics that are limiting us; it's ourselves, and there's no way on earth that some people will be capable of playing some characters well regardless of the rules system. Therefore, structures within the rules designed to do this are pretty pointless; and in the case of WW I think that they actually interrupt play.

                      I agree with your point about politics and socialising; I spend most of my time doing that sort of thing these days. But I don't think that the kind of interruptions that over-complicated rules cause are any more acceptable in these situations; scissors-paper-stone is no more acceptable in an ambassador's cheese and wine evening than rolling dice is in combat (like they used to do in Star Wars LRP).

                      There is a guy who developed a system that runs currently who had some really interesting things to say about system development (not that I agreed with them all) but the messageboard that he said it on is currently foobaah'ed. If it sorts out I'll post it up here, and it might make an interesting discussion point.

                      And anyone in a chainmail bikini is worth see-ing; it's good for a laugh if nothing else! ;-P
                      • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                        Wed, May 5, 2004 - 11:33 AM
                        I don't want to be invulnerable, at least no more so than anyone else. But I don't want to be a 30ish overweight housewife, either.
                        Okay, I'm a 5'2", 150 lb female. Does that mean that I cannot play a male character? No. Does that mean that I cannot plya a seductive character? No. Does that mean that I cannot play a tall character? No. I have imagination, I use costuming, I use makeup, I dye my hair, I wear heels or stilts. Now, I admit to a certain amount of laziness... if I'm going to a major game an event or somethign than I go all out with make up and costume, if its just our every week game I make a token effort.
                        But I don't want to have to go to playing a moderately attractive human, with a lot of knowledge, but no application of that.
                        I've played in the SCA my whole life, I understand what shots would be a killing blow, what wouldn't. I know HOW to throw a good snap, or what a great lunge looks like. But I cannot exacute them.
                        To me, really, its about imagination, about being able to play make-believe. Pretend to be what I'm not.
                        • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                          Thu, May 6, 2004 - 11:01 AM
                          [quote]Does that mean that I cannot play a male character? No. Does that mean that I cannot plya a seductive character? No. Does that mean that I cannot play a tall character? No.[/quote]

                          OK, I guess that's where phys repping things comes in. But answer the questions; how are you going to do these things? In the first case, it's fairly simple; bandage down your bust, create a stubble effect, or wear a beard, or whatever. But the tall person? You can wear heels or stilts, but can you run in them? Things get more difficult then. If you want to play a tall, swift person, is everyone else in the game expected to run more slowly? You see what I mean.

                          Furthermore when talking about playing a seductive character; fine, if you want. But PLAY a seductive character. Don't rely upon a bunch of numbers to tell other people that you're seductive. Act it out. That's my main problem with these systems; the mechanics are stealing roleplay opportunities out from under our noses. If I want to get information out of someone, I want to do it my way, by talking to them IC, or possibly by drugging their drink and torturing them back at my camp (again IC - I'm not a date rapist!). What I don't want to do is go; 'Hi blahblah seduce 7, tell me what you know about Nigella Lawson; thanks, bye'. What I want is the rolelay and interaction to be the actual means by which I was successful, rather than simply set-dressing to the rule that they 'had to tell me, because I was seductive'.

                          You could imagine that you were taller, or male, anyway; sure. no need for costume or props But the other players would see a shorter, female person foremost. At the end of the day, we do need to use our imaginations when we do LRP, but at the same time the whole idea is to make things more visual, realistic and immediate. If we have to spend too much time working out what or who it is supposed to be that we're looking at, then the whole reason that people started running around a castle in Shropshire or wherever the hell it was has got lost somewhere along the way.
                          • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                            Thu, May 6, 2004 - 2:21 PM
                            I guess I've never experienced a game where there was running involved.
                            I do see what you mean. And I don't rely on numbers or anything else to tell me what I am. I do try to RP it out, but in a given group of people it can be difficult. Everyone stagnates, and they end up taking things a little too personally occasionally. Also, while I can easily RP the drugging of the drink, or whatever, I can't rp a sex scene I can't rp a scene where I physically carry someone out of the room.
                            My point is, that I don't want to be limited to what I can physically rp out. I want to be able to challenge myself, and play a demure, sweet follower or a frightening, angry abuser... or a whatever it is that strikes my fancy at the moment.
                            We need to find the happy medium between having to RP EVERYTHING (like we don't have a plethora of castles to run about here!) and simply ending up having a table top game in costume. In some things I think that rock-paper-scissors is a good thing, but I agree that it gets over-used and can break the mood. I don't want to depend on a piece of paper to tell me everything about my character, I don't want to be defined by my own physical limitations, I don't want to be limited. I don't want to be put in a box.
                            • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                              Fri, May 7, 2004 - 6:07 AM
                              Yeah, I admit that there has to be some kind of consistent structure or mechanics; it helps refs make consistent, fair decisions and it helps players decide for themselves what's possible based upon a system that everyone subscribes to rather than their own desire; which helps keep the munchkins/twinks/powergamers in check. The Gathering suffers from an over-simple core system which they won't change, so additions to this become conflicting with the main rules. It also means that you have loads of special calls to remember; and I'm damned if I know the difference between 'harm' and 'crush' in terms of effects...and because 'specials' often directly contradict core rules, it's sometimes hard to tell whether someone's cheating or not (sounds stupid, but when there's 8000 nerds in a field it does happen). It also means that a lot of seriously important decisions are left to ref whim; and when so many of them are complete nobbers, this leaves a lot to be desired.

                              Running? I know characters that committed suicide because they were sick of running. Sound familiar, Dan?

                              I don't know how your physique would limit the behaviour of your character. One of my characters is a eunuch. In another system I play an officer of the Royal Pistoleers (Unit currently missing and defunct, officially). Now both have ended up slightly devious (the eunuch much more so) as a result of getting involved in more political play. Possibly something to do with reading 'The Prince' and wanting to put it to the test as well... But in other ways they're very different. One's a religious fanatic, the other turns religion to his own ends. One is servile, the other aloof and arrogant.

                              I mean, sure, if I want to carry a person elsewhere, it's common for the person to help me a little; regardless of whether I'm trying to help them or otherwise. On the other hand, people have picked me up on the battlefield and RUN with me other their shoulder; an uncomfortable, frightening but ultimately satisfying RP experience...there's nothing more irritating in my experience than someone 'carrying you' when it involves walking along behind them with them holding a bit of your shirt in their hand. You can't even roleplay injury properly unless they at least pretend to be supporting you somehow.

                              As for sex scenes; well, that would involve a little complicity from your RP partner; I've often hear strange sounds coming from the Hart's Brothel, people just nip behind a screen in the tent and make a variety of unusual noises to their heart's content; if that's what they feel like doing! OK, they aren't exactly roleplaying there, but it does add something of vesimillitude to the atmosphere for other players in the area, creating a more bawdy atmosphere.

                              It's an alternative; not necessarily a great one, but it works..

                              Anyway, it's great to actually be discussing something properly for once; usually when you try and bring up a topic of any kind of contentious nature on these kind of boards, people go 'Waah Cliff, you're an evil Jew-murderer, you're so wrong I'm not going to tell you why, goodbye' or some such and refuse to enter into rational conversation on the subject. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to get someone's perspective on it.
                              • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                                Fri, May 7, 2004 - 12:38 PM
                                Unfortunately there are too many twinks/powergamers and cheesemonkeys out there. And any system can get bogged down with rules and no one can be sure whats cheating and what isn't. We are gamer geeks. :) If you have refs that play favorites in any way then you are doubly screwed.

                                What I'm saying about physique is that I am 5'2", 150 lbs-- Jim is 6' and 340 lbs... one of my characters has the phsyical strength to lift and carry him, and another could do it through telekenesis. But I, Miriam, cannot do more than throw his arm over my shoulder or some such. I also don't trust all of the people with whom I game and while someone might be capable of lifting me, especially while I was pregnant I would NEVER have been comfortable allowing it.

                                There is no discussion, however much argument it might arouse that I will run from. I'd rather have an intelilgent, well-worded and thought out conversation on a hot topic with someone I vehemently disagree with than an empty conversation any day! Or with someone who will agree with me to my face and then do whatever they were going to anyway!
              • Re: Wher'd the other topics go?

                Tue, May 4, 2004 - 4:40 PM
                Well, that's cool. Consider yourself outside of the aformentioned demographic - congratulations! I guess that makes you an individual!

                Yeah, I should clarify that last bit...I wasn't saying that that was all LRP women, or even all attractive LRP women. Just that there is a certain sector of the LRP community that fits that bill - much like the chainmail bikini brigade in SCA mentioned in another thread.

                And I dunno...they have their merits... ;)

                Regarding WW; I think a bit like the gathering, if it has a good point (and like windows XP, I like to argue that it doesn't!) then I guess that size and familiarity would be it. But a system that's not so formulaic and doesn't repeat the same mistakes just because 'that's the way it's done' could be so much better, and compared to such advantages, familiarity seems to be more like a haven for player and ref laziness. And to be fair, it's not a trait that exists because of the game itself; but rather the subset of society that plays it stick together. You could be an outlaw biker and you'd get much the same effect...you'd also get laid more than the average LRPer... ;) Chainmail binkin or no...

                English cents? Sorry, we don't have the Euro (yet)! Tha'll have t' make do wi' our English Penneth. Each will buy thee twa loaf o' bread and a fowellmart called Kenneth...

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